Ep #81: Coaching Through Cancer with Heather Smith

Hi, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills episode 81.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

All right, friends, today I have my amazing client, Heather Smith, on to talk about her journey in coaching and cancer, and how the two are related. And I have to say, I haven’t cried yet on an episode of this podcast, but today I got pretty close.

So she is super inspiring, she is a client of mine, she’s going to tell you why she joined Coaching Masters and how that has gone for her, how it is going for her. And when I say she inspires me as much as or more than I inspire her, that is not an understatement or an exaggeration, or whatever you would call it. It’s not that. It is true, she is truly inspirational and I cannot wait for you to hear from her and to learn from her today.

So with no further ado, here she is.

Lindsay: Hello, hello, I am so excited to have you here. Introduce yourself, tell the people who you are and what you do.

Heather: My name is Heather and I am the cancer life coach. That’s as simply as I can explain it.

Lindsay: Which just sums up the entirety of, well there are many reasons, but kind of the first reason that I wanted to have you here today. I am just so grateful that you said yes to this. And so grateful that everyone listening gets the chance to hear your story and hear why you do what you do.

And I’m hoping that this can be, if anyone’s listening, because we see this all the time in the mastermind, coaches just get in their head so much and just think about like what’s the right way to do this? What’s the wrong way? What’s whatever?

And whenever I come to your story it always, even for me, I’m like, listen, there’s no right way. You just have to go because your clients need you. Like let’s go, let’s do it, stop hesitating. Be a great coach, just keep going, figure it out. And I think you’re so inspiring. So that’s enough about how much I love you.

Let’s just talk about how did you get into coaching?

Heather: So I am who I needed three years ago. So let’s back up and let me give you my cancer story. I was diagnosed with stage four ALK positive lung cancer in 2016, May 16th. So I’m coming up on my six year cancerversary.

I am living with metastatic incurable and terminal cancer. So I kind of went through my first three years of cancer life surviving. I felt like I was moving my human meat suit through the day and I was just doing the things to get them done. I had probably one of the worst fears of a cancer patient come true, I had disease progression in August of 2019.

And I woke up in that hospital bed and it was crystal clear to me that I was not doing my life right, period. My life as a human, as a woman, as a sister, and a mother, and a wife, and not doing a great job at being a cancer patient. So I set about to change it and I did all of the things.

Literally all of the things that you could possibly think of, I’ve done them all and I still am doing them. And I wish I could tell you like I had this exact journey to find life coaching, but I don’t know what that was. It just appeared like magic.

And so I started digging into it. I started just learning everything. I found people to follow, I found places and communities, and I thought to myself this is the thing that I need to be doing because everybody needs to have the life experience that I’m currently living or even that I was living then. Like I felt so much better, I felt like I was thriving everywhere in my life.

And if I wasn’t then I could fix it, like I had tools. I was like, oh well that’s easy, I can up-level my thoughts, I can change my thoughts, I can change how I feel about everything. And so I started before I was ready, I was kind of going in a circular route. I was like maybe a membership because I wanted to help all of the people, I still want to help all the people. It didn’t quite work out business wise that way, which is fine, right?

I was just like, that’s not a problem. I tried it, not my bag. Okay, cool. What else can I do? And so I started coaching people. I took on my first clients and, actually, just a couple of weeks ago was one whole year as a coach.

Lindsay: Amazing, I love it. So fun. And I know you because you are in Coaching Masters, you’re in my mastermind. And it’s just always so inspiring to me when I’m coaching and people are asking questions in there and then you raised your hand and you’re like, “Well, so here’s the thing, I kind of am in a hurry.”

And I just love how much you own it, right, of like from that drive of I have to help all the people. Like I could have limited time and I’m not messing around, I’m doing it. Like I’m helping all the people, let’s go.

And what does that feel like to you? Do you always have that? Or do you have to find it? My impression is like you always have it, it’s just there and you’re like let’s just do it, let’s go. But do you have to work on that sometimes? Like does it feel scary?

Heather: Yeah, everything feels scary. You know, in my life I have spent the past six years waking up every day not knowing what physically is going to happen in my body that day. I don’t actually know. I don’t actually know if the disease is going to progress again, if it’s going to do this, if it’s going to do that.

And when you live with facing your mortality like that every day, that is like an epic mind drama. And everything else after that, it’s like it’s fine, I can deal with that. So it’s a motivating factor, but it feels like a healthy motivating factor for me. Like it’s like, I can be fearless. I can decide today to be fearless about everything.

And that’s just kind of the energy that I embody now. It’s just I can be fearless about anything. Am I scared to do things? Absolutely. But I’m going to do it anyway. It’s fine, I can try anything and it’s not going to kill me.

Lindsay: I just love the idea of just like imagining you coaching your clients and them telling you things that are like, yeah, like, this thing feels scary. And you’re like, Mm-hmm. Just like, yeah, that’s why we’re here, that’s what we’re doing today. Like of course it does and we’re going to keep going.

I’m curious about, like when you say you found coaching and you found tools, did you find coaching and just know like I’m going to be a coach? Or at first was it more of like I need these tools, I need to figure out how to use them for myself?

Heather: It was first to use them on myself because I was so focused on creating what I call my own health and healing journey. There is only so much the medicine can do for me and it’s my responsibility to figure out the rest of it. And that, for me, involved a lot of like clearing out the mind drama and getting my brain in a better place.

And when I got my brain in a better place, I could feel better. And when I felt better, I was more motivated. And I was like taking all the right actions and life, everything just got easier and more fun. And so I learned the tools, and I am not perfect by any means. But now I just want to share them with everybody and be like, I can help you immediately, like starting right now, like today.

Lindsay: Yeah. Who are your clients? Like I think that you work with a lot of, like most of your clients also have cancer. Is that like 100% of them do or do you work with other people too?

Heather: Yes, so currently I work with cancer patients in any stage, whether they’re newly diagnosed, whether they’re living with something that’s incurable and terminal, like I am. I also work with clients who have gone through, like I’ve got a lot of breast cancer patients of all different types and they’ve gone all the way to the mastectomy and they’re doing reconstruction, and they’ve done chemo. And they’re starting to look at, oh, what does life look like now that I’m healthy and in remission? And what does that actually mean for me?

I think there’s the cancer side of it, which really is ultimately, like when I look at the big picture vision of what I do with my clients, that is such a small segment. And most of my clients at the end, they’re like, “We didn’t actually talk about cancer a lot.” And I’m like, “Yes, I know.”

Lindsay: Yeah.

Heather: We focus on the life part, all aspects of the life part.

Lindsay: Why do you think that is? I think this is true for other types of coaching too, right? Like when I used to be, I used to coach a lot of people on their business and it was like when I was a one on one coach, not that business and cancer are the same, right? But a lot of times my clients would say we didn’t even talk about business today.

And I didn’t consider myself a business coach, I was like a mindset coach for people with businesses really, or like a life coach for people with businesses. But we would so rarely talk about the actual business. It was like let’s figure out all these other things that are happening. And I’m curious why you think that that happens so often with your clients too.

Heather: I think, and I feel like this was my experience and this is what I see in my clients is it’s like you’re so focused on this fire in front of you and it seems so huge. But that’s because you’re so focused on that one thing that you don’t realize there’s an entire blazing inferno of forest fire behind you.

And so if we focus on what’s going on behind you, the fire in front of you, this sounds kind of backwards and negative, but it seems smaller. You’re like, well, that’s also a thing that I have to deal with, right? They’re all equal and when I can focus on the things behind me, I can put those things to bed and I can move on from those things. And then I can focus on health, healing, what feels good to me, what feels nurturing to me. And I don’t know, it just clears the air I suppose.

Lindsay: Yeah, I’ve always thought that it’s like instead of focusing on like what is this one tiny thing that happened today, right, like the thing that I’m scared to do or that someone said to me, or whatever. It’s like you can focus on this one tiny thing and you can figure out like why does this bother me? What are my thoughts about this, whatever?

Or you can look at like, okay, well, in the big picture of things why does it bother you on a much larger scale, right? Like what are all the other implications around it? Because truly, like that one small thing maybe isn’t even the thing, right?

Heather: Right.

Lindsay: So since you have been, how long? Six years ago you were diagnosed with cancer?

Heather: Yes.

Lindsay: What has changed for you, like my impression is everything, but like in your life, kind of what were some of the changes that you’ve made or that feel like the most significant to you?

Heather: Everything. Do you want it alphabetically?

Lindsay: Maybe focused on like the things that coaching helped with, right? So not necessarily just like every single thing that’s changed, but really like applying coaching to your life. Because I know that that’s so much of what you do with your clients.

Heather: Yes. So in my life it’s really been cleaning up my mind. Cleaning up the way I think, which allows me to be more present in everyday life. And I experience, overall, just so much more joy. Like even on the terrible, horrible days of cancer life when you’re too fatigued to get out of bed and you feel terrible, I always know that the next day will be better and it’s not a problem anymore.

I’ve become gentler on myself. I think growing up, like I had a lot of things to work through to become this better version of myself. And I talk about this a lot with my clients, and part of the reason why I joined the mastermind is we get to up-level our self-concept of ourselves. And when we show up better for ourselves and of ourselves, everybody gets to benefit from that.

And that’s ultimately what’s changed in me, is I am not the same woman that I was when I was diagnosed, I was not the same woman that I was when I had disease progression. And every day I get to be a better person and I have become a better person.

Lindsay: I love it. It gives me chills just hearing you talk about things like that because I, of course, have no reference of like what would it be like to be in your shoes. But I can imagine how I would react and in my mind I’m like, it’s not pretty. It’s not going to be great if I were all of a sudden like take my brain and transplant it into yours.

And this is one of the main reasons I wanted to have you on is just truly thinking about like how important coaching is and the influence and power that we can have as coaches to truly help people change their lives, like really on a huge level. Not just, oh, I want to make some money today, or I want to set these big goals, or like whatever. Which is which is great too.

But just thinking about the impact that coaching can have on someone’s whole life is so powerful to me.

Heather: And everyone around them. You know, I think about that a lot. Like when my clients go in to see their oncologist or when they are having a conflict with their spouse. Or they’re raising kids and they’re trying to like be a cancer patient and also raise kids, and also not live in terror that they’re going to die before their kids graduate, you know, middle school, high school, and they want to be around for college graduations.

I’m like let’s focus on who you are today so that you can make these memories and be so present that you’re such an excellent person in that moment. And that impacts the child, the spouse, the people they’re working with, the people they’re interacting with. Even their oncologists. Like a lot of oncologists are the smartest people in the room, but you want to connect with them on a human level.

And that’s one of the things that’s like, I think, very specific for me, is learning how to think about your oncologist and see what they’re doing for you so that you’re not like, well, you know, the guy was a real jerk and has terrible bedside manner. But I do feel like he’s the strongest person in the room or the smartest person in the room so I want to trust him. But my human brain is saying I don’t trust this guy, like I’m just a number.

So it’s just the ripples, I can see them and they just get bigger and bigger and bigger. And they collect so much more momentum when one person thinks better and feels better.

Lindsay: Well, I will say I have witnessed this firsthand because I see it happen even in the mastermind. And I just knew immediately when you were in there, it’s like I can feel your presence, I can feel your amazing energy. I can feel your willingness to show up and ask the hard questions and say the hard things and get coached on the things that you’re like, yeah, this feels really uncomfortable today, let’s do it.

Or, you know, just celebrating other people and uplifting other people. Like your energy is so contagious. And I did want to tell you that today because I think that as a coach, that’s just so fun to have in your space. And of course, other people bring that energy too, but I just notice it so much with you. And I’ve also had people comment to me, “Oh my gosh, I just love Heather so much.” I’m like, I know, me too.

Heather: And that brings up something funny for me, like choosing to be in the mastermind, that was one of those things where I was like this is terrifying. And my brain was like, and if you don’t do it, you’re not going to be where you want to be.

And so to be in this room with these women, and I’m just constantly blown away and I feel like my nerdy, like middle school self. And I’m like, I’m not cool enough to be in this room. But you know what? I am.

Lindsay: Yes.

Heather: Because I decided to go before I was ready. I was like, I’m just going to do it. And I get to show up and be the person that I want to be.

Lindsay: Yes, of course, you belong in the room. First of all, let’s just get that out of the way right now. And I’m so curious, because I’m sure that this comes up for coaches that are listening, right? Whether it’s like they’re thinking about joining my mastermind, or they’ve just been in other masterminds, or they’ve thought about it and they’ve let that fear kind of sneak in and get in the way.

But what was the fear for you? Like before it started, right? And before when you’re like, it felt so scary, what felt scary about it? That I was going to be really mean?

Heather: No, no, no.

Lindsay: I’m just kidding.

Heather: Because most often in my head, like there’s a Lindsay in my head who tells me nice thing because my inner monologue is not very nice.

Lindsay: You’re like, oh, I know her. She’s already nice, she talks to me all the time.

Heather: Yeah, she can sit at the table. This other one though, she’s got to go. What was scary is that it was buying an investment in the future that I believed to be available to me. One of the things that I committed to this year is to up-level my self-concept, to grow hard this year. I knew this year was going to be a year of growth for me. And this was the thing that was going to push my boundaries, it was going to push my comfort zone.

And I am okay with discomfort. You know, that is a self-concept. Like I can believe that I am okay with discomfort, like it’s there and it’s okay and I’m fine. So that was why I made the decision. It was just like I made it out of fear, but fear in a forward moving way because I had this vision of myself and it’s like this is the direction that I am going. And in order to get there, these are the steps that I need to take, that I want to take.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think you made it like with the fear, like in spite of the fear. Like out of fear would have been like, oh, that’s too scary, I’m not going to do it. Versus like, oh, no, I see the fear and I’m going to keep moving forward. And I will tell you, I’m just telling you all the things that I’ve never told you just now so everyone can hear. It probably would have been nice of me to just tell you all these things beforehand.

But when I read your application I cried my eyes out first, because you said something like, the one that just like got me, like first I started reading through and I was like, wait, she coaches who? Wait, what? Like, what? What? And then I was crying. And then the one that like really got me was you said something like, I wish I had it in front of me.

I don’t remember the exact words but it was something like, I think the question was, if accepted are you all in? Like are you fully committed? And your answer was like, I literally don’t know how much time I have here, please take the money. Can we start today? Very just like why would I ever doubt this? If you will have me, I am 2,000% in. And it just was like, oh, like just thinking about that for you, right? Not for me, I don’t need every client to come to me with that same type of enthusiasm, although it could be fun.

But just knowing what that feels like when I decide something like that. But then thinking about like how that feels to you being in a situation where it is like, please, I kind of am in a hurry, let’s get started. And that commitment and excitement of doing it.

And so I just wanted to tell you that, like your application really affected me in ways that also made it clear sometimes when I read other applications where they’re like, well, it just like depends on what day the calls are. And you know, I might have to like rearrange my client schedules. And they tell me like 20 reasons why they might not be all in. And I’m like, well, you need to read Heather’s application, what’s happening here?

Heather: I just feel like I am the person who is a decision maker. Like this is one of my self-concepts that I’ve really been developing for the past few years.

Lindsay: I love that.

Heather: Like when my friends are like, where should we go for dinner? I’m like here’s where we’re going, here’s what time we’re going. I don’t want to waffle, and if I’m going to make a decision, I get to choose to be all in. And whether or not this mastermind turned out to be what I expected or not, which it’s mind-blowingly so much more than I expected.

I still get to make the decision to show up and be all in every day. Doesn’t matter, it’s my choice and I have the freedom right now to take that choice, and so I will. And I will continue to do that because that is the energy that I bring, always, everywhere.

Lindsay: I love it. Like when you say it’s been more than you expected, why? Like what comes up for you around that?

Heather: There is a depth, there is such a depth to being with you and your brain and being with the ladies in the mastermind that has shown me that like the depth that I feel as a coach is exactly right. You know, like I want to go deep, I want to think about everything. I want to question everything. And I want to just develop so much more love for what I do for a living, but also what I do for life, my life.

And it’s just I feel it deeply, in my heart, in my soul. I’m just like, yes. And every call, everybody gets coaching. And I’m like, this is exactly what I needed to hear, even if I didn’t know it going in. That Maggie Reyes question of like how does this apply to me? I take that very seriously. I’m like what can I take this for? And every single time I’m like, shoot, I didn’t even know that was a thing, but there it is. Better work on that.

Lindsay: One thing you do which I love is, no pressure, you don’t have to do this every single week. But I just noticed that you do it, and as a client I’m a client who does something similar, which is on the calls where you might not necessarily get your own coaching or maybe not even ask for your own coaching, there’s usually a post to follow in the community that’s like, whoa, this is exactly what I needed, here’s why. I didn’t even know this was a thing, but since so and so asked, here’s what I got out of it.

Kind of like a breakdown of like here’s how this was for me. And that always blows my mind. I’m like, what? Yes. It’s just your whole, okay, this is a funny word, I never use this word, but your whole like essence of this is for me and here’s how.

Like you’re just so, I don’t know, like determined to find the way it’s for you. And it’s so amazing and it really affects, I think, kind of the energy of the whole group because you’re there and you’re giving that example.

Heather: I do try to lead by example, even when I fall down on my face.

Lindsay: Yeah, we all do, right? Like that’s part of it, it’s part of the job when you sign up to be the person who leads by example, sometimes you’re going to fall on your face. Although I don’t know that I’ve witnessed that happening. So if you’re thinking you have, I haven’t noticed it.

Heather: I feel even better, like I’m like, no, I’m not even falling. I’m confident and I’m blazing, like I’m on fire forward moving. And I love that.

Lindsay: I just love it. I’m so grateful for you in so many ways. One thing I noticed too, and I don’t know if you want to speak to this, but it seems like, and I’ve said this in some of my other masterminds, where it feels like each group that I’ve had, they kind of take on a personality of their own a little bit. Like each group has a little bit of a different personality.

And one thing that I notice, I think, that’s happening in this group is, there’s like a lot of new friendships and colleague-ness happening, which I love. I’ve been very vocal about how important that has been in my business. What are your just thoughts about that, whether in the mastermind or outside of it? Like how is that important to you?

Heather: Oh, my gosh, I could speak about this question for like hours. This is actually one of the things that I was like, I hope we get a chance to talk about this because this is so vital for me.

Within this group I feel power, like it feels powerful. Like these are powerhouses. Every single one of us are powerful in our own ways, in our own special, unique, magical, amazing ways. But for me, when I get in a group and everybody has such clean brains and are willing to like go deep and think about things, and they’re open and willing to receive the coaching that they’re getting, I spend less time trying to think like, well, how do I explain this to a non-coach muggle person, you know?

Lindsay: Muggle.

Heather: Because you guys already all get it, like we’re already deep in it and we’re so committed that it’s like you have to say less words. And I love being in a space like that. For me, you know, I deal with my coaching clients, I deal with my friends. And deal, it sounds negative, but like that’s who I interact with.

But when I come into Coaching Masters I am just so grateful that I don’t have to say all the words, it’s just it’s there. Like everybody’s at the same level and it’s deep. And I like that and I just want to like crawl in there and like nestle up in everybody’s brain and be like, “Hello, I’m here, this is my safe space.”

Lindsay: That’s so good. Yes, I love, I really just love scrolling through the page and just seeing all the posts, some of which are very related to what we’re talking about and what we coached on on that call. But then sometimes there’s like, hey, there’s this totally unrelated thing that I would just love someone’s brain on. And I welcome that, right? It’s like, I might not always come in and coach on it, but you all just handle it and coach each other so beautifully.

And I just think that there’s something about that, that when you are an entrepreneur and if you work from home and you aren’t around colleagues every day and you could go for a while without interacting with people that aren’t your clients, I do think that you are right about like I also want to just crawl in there and be like, “Oh, look at all these amazing brains just having these conversations.” And that always just feel so fun to me.

And like even when I’m not, you know, maybe not commenting on something because I can tell like I’m not needed here, right? Like they’re handling it. I’m always so impressed by the level of just grace and humility, but also just so much kindness and openness, right? It’s like such an amazing what, like dichotomy of like honesty and rawness, and also like tough coaching through the most compassionate lens. That’s how I feel about it anyway.

Heather: Yeah. Perfect words, perfect. Lindsay nails it again.

Lindsay: I mean, every group that I’ve had has been some version of that, but I just really feel that with your specific group that you’re in. Like I said, I feel like everyone takes on their own, every group, and anyone that’s listening who does group coaching probably knows what I’m talking about. Like every group just kind of has their own, and I always think it’s maybe like the top, maybe the top personalities or like the loudest personalities kind of stand out a little bit and like form it.

But I don’t know, I haven’t quite figured out how it happens. It’s one of my favorite things. I just love it so much.

Heather: It is amazing. So I’m going to take this in a little bit of an odd direction.

Lindsay: I love it.

Heather: You know, I’m in Krav Maga. For those of you who don’t know what that is, it’s Israeli self-defense.

Lindsay: Yes.

Heather: This was another one of those things where I was like I have no idea what I’m doing but I’m going to do it anyway because I want to, like it was part of that self-concept. Like I want to feel like I have my own back physically, right? Like I feel like I have my own back mentally, but physically I wanted to feel it.

And I am the loudest person in the room. People love to spar with me because I’m noisy about it and I laugh, and I grunt and I make a lot of really strange noises. And that’s okay, right? You get to show as who you are, as a coach, always.

This is who I am, and not everybody’s that way and I love that. I love to see other people’s energy, because sometimes I’ll ask myself like, how would this person show up? And how would this person ask this question? Because I see there’s just so much power in witnessing how someone else does something and being able to tap into what is possible, because you don’t know if it’s just always you by yourself and your clients.

Lindsay: I love that. So good. I remember, I can’t remember when I found that out, I must have seen a photo of you or something with the, how do you say it, Krav?

Heather: Maga.

Lindsay: Krav Maga.

Heather: I hope I say it right.

Lindsay: I have no idea, but I for a couple of years did taekwondo with my daughter because she wanted to do it. And I was like, why does she get to have all the fun? So then I decided to do it. I didn’t actually do it with her, but I took my own adult classes.

And it’s so interesting that you just said that because that was one thing that I really, and it was kind of the year before I started my podcast and I really had to figure out how to be okay with like my voice standing out above everyone else’s, especially because I was one of the only women in the class. And so just, you know, it’s just different, it was like there are a bunch of male voices and then there was mine, which was just a very different tone.

And I would laugh sometimes, and I just had to be like okay with that too, right? But just that really like leaning into, oh, this is what my voice sounds like when it’s loud, and when it stands out above other people, and when I make weird noises, and when this thing.

And so anybody that’s listening that’s like, you know, how do you do that? Like it’s so scary to just put yourself out there. I feel like taekwondo was very helpful with that for me. And sounds like you’re having the same experience.

Heather: Totally agree. I make a lot of weird noises.

Lindsay: Well, it feels very strange to stand in front of people. And like in Taekwondo you have to do certain things, make noises when you’re doing things and or like braking boards or something like that. Like noises just come out of your body and it really gives you so much power in whatever it is that you’re doing. And yeah, gosh, I feel like we could talk about that for hours. I’ve never really considered the crossover there.

Heather: Yeah, I see it a lot. You know, like my voice needs to be heard no matter how it sounds.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Heather: Because this is my voice. And so for me, that’s who I am all the time. Like I am fully turned on, fully turned up. I go into a restaurant, I’m the one loud cackling in the corner, and that’s okay. I love that about myself, and if you don’t love it, that’s okay too. I love you for not loving it. That’s fine.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, I remember them just getting in my face and like really yelling at me to get me to like yell louder. And it was very like, whoa, like what is happening? And then but the minute you do it, it’s like this feels so awkward and also amazing at the same time. Like there’s just something about it that feels so freeing.

Heather: Yes, it’s very liberating, I think.

Lindsay: All right, well, that was a little bit of a rabbit hole. So is there anything else? Like when I just asked you that you said I was hoping this would come up today, is there anything else like that that you are hoping that we can talk about today?

Heather: Oh, just as a side note, like you fan girl and I’m over here like, oh my God, it’s Lindsay.

Lindsay: Just mutual fangirling happening.

Heather: There is a voice inside of my head, seriously, I’m not joking when I say there’s like a Lindsay voice in my head now. And I’ve listened to your podcast since it came out. And literally, I was like, listening to episode one when episode one came out. And you, whatever it is about your tone and your curiosity, there’s space for that in my head.

Like it just like plugged in nicely and I just constantly think like, how can I be more curious about this? What would Lindsay say about this? And being able to integrate that is so fun for me because sometimes I can be a little bit bossy, right? And I don’t need to boss my clients around, though I’d very much like to.

But it’s like how can it be like more like Lindsay? Like what is the question? Or what other questions are there that I don’t even see yet? You know, and just constantly pushing my curiosity to that edge like where is it? What else is there?

Lindsay: Yeah, I love that. I was actually just recording some videos about asking great questions for The Coach Lab. And it’s interesting trying to teach it because I am trying to tap into like how do you teach it, right? Because I think part of the way, like what you’re explaining, I think is part of the way I teach it, which is like by example.

Which is very different than like here’s the exact prescription of how you do it. And here’s a good question, here’s a bad question, right? And it really is like leaning into that curiosity. And I have found that, and I’m curious if this is true for you, but I have found the more that I really think about that and lean into it in coaching, I also notice I’m able to be more open to it in my life.

So instead of being that like, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself bossy, but I can be pretty opinionated sometimes. And I just notice it in my life of like, oh, what if this is another place that I could lean into a little more curiosity? What would that feel like for the people who I’m interacting with?

Heather: Yeah, absolutely. The way I like to think about it is we get to practice our emotions, the ones that maybe are a little bit atrophied because of all of the reasons why. And I like to practice my emotions a lot.

Like I want to practice my curiosity. I want to see what that feels like. I want to figure out what I can be thinking, how that feels in my body, and how to almost like generate it on demand. So when I go into a coaching call, the curiosity is there, my mind is relatively blank, and I can just bring all of that curiosity. It’s right there in the forefront.

And it takes practice to some degree and it takes a willingness to fail and a willingness to be like, oh, you know, maybe I could have done it better this way. And I could have done it better that way. And then also just getting curious, like, well, how would I do that?

And I feel like I constantly am just asking myself questions repeatedly, like down and down and down and down until I get to the bottom. And I’m like, oh, here’s that thing. Here’s like one word I can tell myself to bring that curiosity up.

Lindsay: Yes. So this could be interesting to talk about, I don’t think I’ve ever talked about this on the podcast before. When you go to that place of like, oh, let me be more curious, can you access it first? Is it like in your mind, or is it a way you feel in your body?

Heather: So I’m a feeler before I’m a thinker. And that’s true for like my normal life. But for coaching, I’m the coach, right? So I like to think that I am leading. And so it’s the thought first and then that generates the feeling.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Heather: But I’m doing that deliberately, I’m doing that on purpose for a client.

Lindsay: Right. Yeah, I’ve noticed before and I don’t think that I’ve taught this in this way, but I’ve noticed for myself the first place I notice that I’m not being curious, isn’t necessarily by the questions I’m asking or like what I’m saying. It’s how I feel in my body. Like if I feel tense, or closed off, or, you know, I’m like sitting really far forward, it’s just it’s such a different energy. Because to me, curiosity just feel so light and open and like relaxed.

And is that how you would describe it? Or do you feel it different?

Heather: That is how I would describe it and I would say when you’re in curiosity, no question is wrong and no question comes off poorly.

Lindsay: Yes, I think we’ve been talking about this a lot in, I think it was in the Coach Lab maybe. But where it’s like you could ask the exact same question, but when you’re feeling curious it’s going to come out of your mouth one way, and when you’re feeling judgmental or whatever about your client, it could come out just a really different way in a way that might not feel the best for your client.

Heather: Yeah, then you can feel it and then you can speak to it. But I’m in Coach Lab too, and we’re talking about questions and I was like, I just want to feel like my energy is like I’m a two year old and I’m like picking up a rock to look underneath the rock. Like what’s under this rock?

Lindsay: Yes.

Heather: Like are there, I don’t know what everybody calls them, but like rolly pollies or pill bugs. Is it bands under there? Is it crickets? Like what’s under here?

Lindsay: That’s so good.

Heather: I just want to tap into that level, that feeling. And when I’m in that feeling, then I’m fine.

Lindsay: As long as it’s not spiders, then I’m out. I’m not a fan.

Okay, well, if anyone is listening, and they’re considering joining Coaching Masters, what would your advice be to them?

Heather: If I can do it, so can you. Don’t let fear determine your life. It’s an option, it’s not a decision you have to make. You know, when you say, okay, I’ve got this idea, the idea is there for a reason. You should probably say yes. Say yes to yourself, say yes to Lindsay, it is the best investment that I’ve made. And I’m pretty sure after the first coaching call I was like, I would have paid 10 times that just for this. For one call.

Lindsay: I’ll take a note of that, I’m noting that now in my files.

Heather: Yes, I would literally, like after the first call I was like, totally worth it. Just in that moment I became a better coach.

Lindsay: I love it, you’re the best. Okay, tell them, if anybody’s listening and they either just want to follow you and follow your journey, or know someone who might want to work with you, or they want to work with you themselves, where can they find you? Where’s your like favorite place to hang out? Your website, your Instagram, whatever, wherever you would want them to go, where would that be?

Heather: So I’m on Instagram at Heathers, like plural, .coaching. The reason for that is I have a very basic name, I don’t have a fancy last name, like Dotzlaf. Like it’s very basic. But that’s the best place to find me, and there the link in my bio, I’ve got a Facebook group, I do all of the things. All of the things everywhere.

Lindsay: You’re pretty active, you have a pretty active Facebook group, right?

Heather: Yeah.

Lindsay: And who is it for?

Heather: Cancer patients, anybody living with cancer, caregivers as well, just because I think-

Lindsay: That was going to be my next question.

Heather: Yeah, it offers a little bit of an insight to what is going on in a patient’s mind. Because as a caregiver, that is a whole different dynamic and it does impact your relationships. I talk a lot about relationships, like sometimes you have to separate and peel off the cancer patient identity, versus just the spouse identity, or just the partner identity, or just the parent identity.

And then, if anybody out there is ALK positive, I run the mindset reset inside the Facebook group, the ALK positive Facebook group.

Lindsay: What is that?

Heather: So I have ALK, A-L-K positive, it’s a genetic mutation.

Lindsay: Okay.

Heather: They have a specific Facebook group for that and one of my passion projects was like how can I help more people in a deeper way, a deeper, more meaningful way than donating to research? Which donate research, please, it’s going to keep me alive. But I thought, you know, I’ve got this great coach brain and I see the same things on the page. So I offered, hey, do you want me to run group coaching in your group? And that’s what I do.

Lindsay: I love that. Oh my goodness. And how do you work with your clients? Do you work one on one, and you said you had a membership, but if someone is like maybe they want to work with you, what would that look like?

Heather: So I work one on one. This was one of those things that I was like, oh, we should talk about this. So I have one on one coaching for 16 weeks, so four months. With that we get the one on one and then I have video modules behind it. It’s the framework that I went through to move from surviving my diagnosis to thriving with it. The one on one calls really are just the life stuff. It’s like the amazing life stuff.

So I did work it in a little bit of a reverse order, right? Like normally, it’s one on one coaching, and then a program with videos, and then it’s, you know, a mastermind or whatever. That’s not the order I went in. And that’s okay. Like I don’t have a problem with it. I love how it is set up. So yeah, I work one on one and it’s amazing. I love to talk to everybody all over the world.

Lindsay: Yeah, I love that. I try to be very open about it, and I think maybe I don’t say it enough. But I think, you know, kind of depending on what your coach background is or kind of the groups that you’re in when it comes to coaching, you know, there are groups that are like, no, you obviously start with a membership, right? Like that’s not necessarily a weird thing depending on just kind of what circles you’re in, right? Like what coach circles you’re in and how they teach it.

And in Coaching Masters I’m always, there’s never a time that I’m like, nope, this is exactly what everyone’s journey is. Some people come in with groups, some people come in with memberships, some people come in with one on one, and we just make it work. I think it’s a good mix of all of that. So I’m glad you brought that up.

Heather: Yeah, if I’ve learned anything, you can do it in any order. It’s just your thoughts about it.

Lindsay: Yes. Yeah, and I always say like there are going to be hard things, no matter which you choose. You just get to decide which hard things you want to work through, right? Like there’s just going to be different hard no matter which path you go on, and they all end in the same place so it doesn’t really matter.

Heather: Right, you get to help all the people and everybody’s happy.

Lindsay: I love it. Thank you so much for being here today, I appreciate you so much. I’m so grateful for you. I’m so grateful that you were open to sharing your story and talking to everyone today.

Heather: Yeah, it was amazing. And I hope everybody loves it. I’m so excited.

Lindsay: They will, I’ve already decided.

Heather: No brain drama there.

Lindsay: Nope. All right, thank you so much, bye.

Heather: Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.